Curse

Gigashadow · Jun 20, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

So like many I had been using the popular sabway N/Rt healer, which after the update became even stronger, now giving you the choice of replacing Xinrae's with Signet of Spirits (thereby adding a little bit of offense, as well as making Mend Body & Soul remove 4 conditions instead of 1).

However, given the latest update, I think you can now make a more offensive version of this character work as a Rt/ primary, and I'll explain why. Here is what I have been running:

12+2 Channeling
12+1 Restoration

Signet of Spirits {elite}
Splinter Weapon
Ancestors' Rage
Spirit Light
Mend Body & Soul (now removes 4 conditions!)
Life
Protective was Kaolai
Spirit Siphon

The reason this works is that Spirit Siphon is pretty amazing with the 3 spirits from Signet of Spirits + Life. The hero AI is smart enough to pick an appropriate spirit, and it gets back 14 energy every time, for a net of +9. It can do this every 3 seconds, and it will, if it needs the energy. I found this to be better energy management than trying to use Boon of Creation.

Unlike a necro, which gets a max of 3 unpredictable bursts of 9-10 energy (depending on Soul Reaping) every 15 seconds, Spirit Siphon is controllable energy income. Since its recharge is only 3 seconds, it's like an unconditional SoLS on crack. Even better is that you can leave this hero on passive now, as it does not need to target enemies (which the SoLS healer does). Energy management comes from the channeling attribute line, which this guy has 14 in, rather than having to spec into 9-10 soul reaping.

If you play a melee character, you probably know a 14 spec splinter weapon is really quite amazing, and Ancestors' Rage is actually decent enough at 14 spec to use on HM.

This guy actually has a free secondary, but I haven't thought of anything interesting to do with it or what I would replace.

street peddler · Jun 20, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

spirit siphon is definitely amazing. heroes use it very well. just make sure youve got a spirit around, which isnt really a problem anymore. SoS is the best with it obviously because of its low recharge and the quantity of spirits it creates.

upier · Jun 20, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

12+2 Channeling
12+1 Restoration

Signet of Spirits {elite}
Splinter Weapon
Ancestors' Rage
Spirit Light
Mend Body & Soul (now removes 4 conditions!)
Life
Protective was Kaolai
Spirit Siphon

The reason this works is that Spirit Siphon is pretty amazing with the 3 spirits from Signet of Spirits + Life. The hero AI is smart enough to pick an appropriate spirit, and it gets back 14 energy every time, for a net of +9. It can do this every 3 seconds, and it will, if it needs the energy. I found this to be better energy management than trying to use Boon of Creation.

Unlike a necro, which gets a max of 3 unpredictable bursts of 9-10 energy (depending on Soul Reaping) every 15 seconds, Spirit Siphon is controllable energy income. Since its recharge is only 3 seconds, it's like an unconditional SoLS on crack. Even better is that you can leave this hero on passive now, as it does not need to target enemies (which the SoLS healer does). Energy management comes from the channeling attribute line, which this guy has 14 in, rather than having to spec into 9-10 soul reaping.

Just noting a few things.
Posted a bug query regarding MB&S. The full description would imply that it removes only ONE condition for all spirits - when in reality it removes one for EACH spirit (as the concise version states). So if it really should work this way - superb idea!

Spirit Siphon completely drains the energy resources of a spirit. Spirits have a normal e-regen rate of 4 pips. Which means that each time a hero uses SS, the energy of that spirit drops to 0. So, unless the spirit's energy fully recharges (which means some 25ish secs), your next energy drain will be greatly reduced.
(I'd also look into running a 14/14 spread because of the breakpoints - WoW (although you aren't running it) and Life all go up a notch at 14.)

Personally, the only reason why I'd look away from going N/Rt is to add affects that aren't available on that combo. Which in this case means something like hex removal - either mesmer secondary and then bring something like CoF also or monk and then potentially going smiting for SoH.

Abnormai · Jun 21, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

In comparison from Rt/healer heroes and N/rt healers...
N/rt healers way of getting "bursts of unpredictable energy" will still allow them to stay at max energy.

In this way, it doesn't matter how much more energy the Rt can have.

If you are :
Primarily a caster group with little to no armor or higher armor classes
Primarily a spell casting group with little defense skills
A scattering - too afraid to go in first kind of group

Do not, under any circumstance, take N/rt.

Necro heroes are not designed to heal. They maintain energy fairly well, and can substitute half their bar for support quite easily, still never dipping below 25 energy (with just about all builds, with the way I play)

They will, however, heal more in the sense that they can continue healing for great periods of time. This is good for a medium to heavy armor group, whom does not get hit much, but continuously needs healing.

If you get spiked, N/Rt will not usually save you, depending on the other support of your team.

Rt/X however, probably will, as it might be mixed with protection spells, or mixed with its other great attributes that prevent spikes.

The other GREAT thing about N/rt is its offense capabilities as well...

I use an offensive elite on my N/rt and my team can kill just about anything. It is fantastic for teams that have tons of minor support for each class it brings.

smilingscar · Jun 21, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

The reason this works is that Spirit Siphon is pretty amazing with the 3 spirits from Signet of Spirits + Life. The hero AI is smart enough to pick an appropriate spirit, and it gets back 14 energy every time, for a net of +9.

Does they really use it well? I would think they'd have trouble since it now targets the nearest spirit, rather than the hero being able to target. I've also noticed that heroes don't ever use Ancestor's Rage effectively. They don't ever cast it, from my experience.

Hatchet Child · Jun 21, 2009, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

I've also noticed that heroes don't ever use Ancestor's Rage effectively. They don't ever cast it, from my experience.

This is one of two things. Number one being you don't have more then Two foes next to you. The other I've noticed is if your using a melee weapon over a ranged weapon they are more likely to use it on you.

For an example The naga will never use Ancestor's Rage unless the Naga Warrior is in melee range of more then Two enemies.

Gigashadow · Jun 21, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

Does they really use it well? I would think they'd have trouble since it now targets the nearest spirit, rather than the hero being able to target. I've also noticed that heroes don't ever use Ancestor's Rage effectively. They don't ever cast it, from my experience.

Hmm you seem to be right on the first point, as I just tested it out in the Great temple of Balthazar. I think the reason it must be working well for me on the vanquishes I did today (I was monitoring his energy level) is because of all the random kiting around that heroes do when the fighting starts puts different spirits in closest range.

As far as Ancestors' Rage goes, it definitely uses it on me as a Warrior, when I am in a clump of enemies.

AtomicMew · Jun 21, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I think you are still better off with a N/Rt. Wiki says that both SoS and Siphon Spirits are bugged, currently. Anyway, it's not as if there aren't just as awesome choices in necro lines. For example:

[order of the vampire][signet of lost souls][life][rejuvenation][mend body and soul][spirit light][weapon of warding][flesh of my flesh]

or

[discord][signet of lost souls][life][rejuvenation][mend body and soul][spirit light][weapon of warding][flesh of my flesh]

Paul Dawg · Jun 21, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Forget [spirit siphon]--just use [boon of creation] at 14 spawning power and never worry about energy again.

Gigashadow · Jun 21, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

The rit is setup as 14 channeling and 13 resto, so there is no room to invest in the otherwise useless spawning attribute line just for energy management. That is why Spirit Siphon was so appealing.

I was not at all impressed with boon of creation at 8 (+4e) and especially don't want to put 14 (+6e) in it. At that point might as well be a N/ primary instead.

AtomicMew · Jun 22, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

After the RoJ nerf, I'm trying to find a replacement for my sin. I'm thinking something like the following will do nicely.

[Signet of Spirits][Bloodsong][Agony][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage][Siphon Spirit][Strength of Honor][Flesh of My Flesh]

What do you guys think?

speedy21589 · Jun 22, 2009, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

After the RoJ nerf, I'm trying to find a replacement for my sin. I'm thinking something like the following will do nicely.

[Signet of Spirits][Bloodsong][Agony][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage][Siphon Spirit][Strength of Honor][Flesh of My Flesh]

What do you guys think?

I think I've been running almost that exact bar on a rit hero for my sin. Agony was probably swapped out for something else (maybe smite hex, I don't remember). It definitely seems to work pretty well, I love having a high spec splinter weapon.

Paul Dawg · Jun 22, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

If you want a resto that can also spam channeling skills, I think you have to be a primary necro. (My Sabway N/Rt resto has 10 in channeling so that she can use splinter weapon effectively.)

I really don't see how a primary rit hero is going to handle energy problems without boon of creation. I have a Rt/R hero that uses spirit's strength, but she has a zealous bow and gets energy that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

The rit is setup as 14 channeling and 13 resto, so there is no room to invest in the otherwise useless spawning attribute line just for energy management. That is why Spirit Siphon was so appealing.

I was not at all impressed with boon of creation at 8 (+4e) and especially don't want to put 14 (+6e) in it. At that point might as well be a N/ primary instead.

speedy21589 · Jun 22, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I really don't see how a primary rit hero is going to handle energy problems without boon of creation.

Spirit Siphon (at 15 channeling, I like the even 50 damage on Splinter) + Signet of Spirits + Bloodsong will net 10 energy per cast (I think). Spirits regenerate full energy in about 20 seconds. With 4 spirits, that means you can use spirit siphon about every 5 seconds to get 10 energy.

SR averages out to about that much as well (can only trigger 3 times every 15 seconds).

Paul Dawg · Jun 22, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

If the hero knows which spirit to siphon from, sure. I haven't seen that they're very good at it, and if they siphon from the same spirit twice, they're not going to get much energy out of the second shot.

speedy21589 · Jun 22, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

If the hero knows which spirit to siphon from, sure. I haven't seen that they're very good at it, and if they siphon from the same spirit twice, they're not going to get much energy out of the second shot.

I dunno, my experience has been that they're generally pretty good with it. I pretty much run the bar posted by traversc and I've never noticed my hero to have energy issues.

Paul Dawg · Jun 23, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

I'll try it. I know there have been some bug reports about spirit siphon.

I don't mind putting points into spawning because there are some skills in there that have become awfully useful all of a sudden. Like feast of souls, which, if heroes could ever be convinced to USE it, would give each member of the party 97 points of healing PER SPIRIT. With multiple spirits around, that's tremendous. But I always have to manual it; for whatever reason, they're morons about using it. Another spawning skill I like is spirit's gift, which just oh-by-the-way heals each party member for 47 points and removes one condition every time you create a spirit. Throw on those two skills, and you really have to wonder whether you need a resto at all. I've been using this guy instead of the Sabway N/Rt resto:

boon of creation
spirit's gift
painful bond
signet of spirits
bloodsong
splinter weapon
gaze of fury
feast of souls

At 12+1+1 spawning and 12+2 channeling, I hardly miss my resto.

AtomicMew · Jun 27, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

So now that the novelty of SoS has worn off: surprise, it's still a pretty shitty elite.

However, I have been VERY impressed with Siphon Spirit. It's pretty hax e-management, and being rit primary means a free secondary and 14 in channeling, which is awesome.

Here's another build I have tried:

Rt/Mo
Spirit's Strength
Weapon of Aggression
Splinter Weapon
Ancestor's Rage
Bloodsong
Siphon Spirit
Strength of Honor
Death Pact Signet

Xandra used it perfectly, maintaining WoA on herself and never overwriting with splinter. On paper, she does pretty decent DPS, especially with a spear, gaining the benefit of OotV too. Energy was always fine. In fact, it was more than fine, which makes me feel like there could be a better use of an elite out there. All in all, it felt pretty lackluster....

Racthoh · Jun 28, 2009, 12:32 AM // 00:32

To me making a Signet of Spirits build work involves taking advantage of it's ability to produce 3 spirits every 20 seconds through a single skill slot. Spirit Siphon is a good start but I'd go into Spawning Power over Restoration instead.

The reason being that Spawning Power gives you a fair variety of spirit creation and destruction skills to work with, some offensive some defensive. Immediately you get access to Boon of Creation, triggering three times when you use Signet of Spirits. Then you also have Spirit to Flesh or Feast of Souls, significantly more powerful party heals than what's available in the Restoration line. A personal favorite: Rupture Soul. The blinding effect and big damage is great for larger packs of melee mobs rushing at the backline.

The concept I was thinking of looked like this:

Signet of Spirits {E}
Splinter Weapon
Rupture Soul
Boon of Creation
Ancestor's Rage
Spirit to Flesh/Spirit's Gift/Feast of Souls
Destruction
Mantra of Inscriptions

Spawning Power: 10 + 1
Channeling Magic: 12 + 1 + 1
Inspiration Magic: 8

The biggest issue though is how well the AI will use the spirit killing skills.

Gigashadow · Jun 28, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I'll try it. I know there have been some bug reports about spirit siphon.

I don't mind putting points into spawning because there are some skills in there that have become awfully useful all of a sudden. Like feast of souls, which, if heroes could ever be convinced to USE it, would give each member of the party 97 points of healing PER SPIRIT. With multiple spirits around, that's tremendous. But I always have to manual it; for whatever reason, they're morons about using it. Another spawning skill I like is spirit's gift, which just oh-by-the-way heals each party member for 47 points and removes one condition every time you create a spirit. Throw on those two skills, and you really have to wonder whether you need a resto at all. I've been using this guy instead of the Sabway N/Rt resto:

boon of creation
spirit's gift
painful bond
signet of spirits
bloodsong
splinter weapon
gaze of fury
feast of souls

At 12+1+1 spawning and 12+2 channeling, I hardly miss my resto.

As a warrior, when I need condition removal, I usually need it right away, not as a side effect of when the hero happens to create spirits next, so I'm somewhat addicted to Mend Body & Soul with 3-4 spirits out. I'm also unlikely to be in the vicinity of the spirits that got created. I think the party heal from Spirit's Gift is the big win here, with Signet of Spirits, but heroes will not re-cast Spirit's Gift if the spirits haven't died yet. I think that when hero AI is fixed to use Feast of Souls automatically, this will result in frequent spirit killing, at which point your build above will be quite slick.

Heroes definitely used to not keep Spirit's Gift up very well from when I last tried it out (on a N/Rt minion master). I don't know if this is still true, but there was a bug about it on one of the hero skill usage wiki pages.

I am definitely looking for alternatives to the sabway N/Rt, so keep the builds coming everyone. Right now in my hero setup I now have a paragon (other thread here), a N/Mo minion bomber smiter, and the N/Rt. I'd like to experiment with the last two characters, but I'd really like to ensure I keep Strength of Honor and Splinter Weapon (even if at only 10 channeling) if possible, as they are very good skills.

The trick is to come up with a good Rt/Mo or Mo/Rt guy with splinter weapon and strength of honor. Anyone have anything that works really well? I saw traversc's one build above so far, interesting, haven`t tried it yet; I'm thinking maybe make that but make it a Rt/P to add an attack skill to benefit from other paragon shouts. Wearying Spear might work well on that guy at even low levels of spear mastery for the large amount of +damage, given +damage and spirit's strength aren't affected by weakness.